Sagecandor returns

Specific discussion about Wikimedia editors and editing of Wikimedia project pages.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:15 pm

Pudeo wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:14 pm
I don't have a WO account.

Having gone through all of that more closely to file the SPI, the behavioral evidence is pretty damn convincing. I also noticed that the IP did the one sentence for paragraphs thing on talk pages and listed that one too.

Now let's see. I'm proving you critics that Wikipedia processes work!
Sagecandor is now officially banned as a sock of Cirt. However, I don't see this as a ringing endorsement of Wikipedia's processes. Given that much, if not all, of this evidence was compiled by banned editors off-site, including Sashi who was banned specifically for calling out Sagecandor's agenda-driven editing, it only proves that Wikipedia's processes can eventually be made to work properly under pressure from outside forces after considerable collateral damage has already been inflicted. None of his articles are going to be deleted and there have already been abortive attempts at doing so to no avail. Even so, it is good to get a little validation after all the effort put into the matter. The fact Sagecandor apparently doesn't even deny being Cirt makes one wonder how that ArbCom investigation didn't end differently. Had he made a more emphatic case? Did he play the "health" card? ArbCom obviously had this matter before them last year and did nothing of substance. More importantly, there is nothing to stop Sagecandor/Cirt from just starting up a new account and beginning this whole charade over again.

On a side note, apparently Wiki Review is officially an "offsite attack website" per Sagecandor's e-mail to Bbb23. Couldn't be more flattered.

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Dysklyver
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by Dysklyver » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:15 pm

Blocked, but TPA allowed and his articles are apparently not to be deleted per G5.

Also looks like he may be able to return with good behavior.

Interesting all round.
Editor of the The Wiki Cabal. I live at www.wiki.org.uk.

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Pudeo
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by Pudeo » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:58 pm

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:15 pm
Sagecandor is now officially banned as a sock of Cirt. However, I don't see this as a ringing endorsement of Wikipedia's processes. Given that much, if not all, of this evidence was compiled by banned editors off-site, including Sashi who was banned specifically for calling out Sagecandor's agenda-driven editing, it only proves that Wikipedia's processes can eventually be made to work properly under pressure from outside forces after considerable collateral damage has already been inflicted. None of his articles are going to be deleted and there have already been abortive attempts at doing so to no avail. Even so, it is good to get a little validation after all the effort put into the matter. The fact Sagecandor apparently doesn't even deny being Cirt makes one wonder how that ArbCom investigation didn't end differently. Had he made a more emphatic case? Did he play the "health" card? ArbCom obviously had this matter before them last year and did nothing of substance. More importantly, there is nothing to stop Sagecandor/Cirt from just starting up a new account and beginning this whole charade over again.

On a side note, apparently Wiki Review is officially an "offsite attack website" per Sagecandor's e-mail to Bbb23. Couldn't be more flattered.
Good job Sashi and you. I just wonder why no one from WO made a SPI investigation, if judging from their thread, Sage being Cirt wasn't just an open secret but an elephant in the room? A couple of weeks ago Alex S had commented there that Sage is suspicious and that he would look into it. And BU Rob said that when he's been in the ArbCom, there hasn't been an email about Sage (he started in Dec 2017 when Sashi was banned). So, there are good admins around, even a couple in the ArbCom. It's just that the email list is pretty useless, even an editor like K.e.coffman, who's being viewed sympathetically by them, had trouble communicating with the mail list. It has a a massive amount of emails each day and it's probably not very easy for a single Arb to act on something alone.

So in hindsight, Sashi should have file a SPI in late summer 2017 when you got the behavioral evidence, before being blocked. However, I understand it's not always easy to file them especially if you have on-wiki opponents. Even I felt a bit nosy filing this one, even if I don't care what people think about me and I've already stepped on enough toes. Obviously there's no policy against using diffs collected by others, although naturally I took sole responsibility for the material I inserted the in the report on-wiki.

The comments by Sage on his talkpage are a bit weird. He was asking whether he could help with Wikipedia topics already (with the Cirt account? despite being warned it will be indeffed if he edits with it?) So I'd imagine there's a high chance of a new sock. Maybe I listed too many of the behavior traits in the SPI and emptied our hand from the best cards already ,as he can now avoid those characteristics. :lol:

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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:48 pm

Dysklyver wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:15 pm
Blocked, but TPA allowed and his articles are apparently not to be deleted per G5.

Also looks like he may be able to return with good behavior.

Interesting all round.
His DYKs are being discussed as well. For now there isn't much discussion, but at least one user is suggesting not rejecting them outright. It would be truly a bizarre situation if a slew of articles created by a ban-evading sock as part of a blatant political agenda were to appear on the front page after everyone was aware of their provenance.
Pudeo wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:58 pm
Good job Sashi and you. I just wonder why no one from WO made a SPI investigation, if judging from their thread, Sage being Cirt wasn't just an open secret but an elephant in the room? A couple of weeks ago Alex S had commented there that Sage is suspicious and that he would look into it. And BU Rob said that when he's been in the ArbCom, there hasn't been an email about Sage (he started in Dec 2017 when Sashi was banned). So, there are good admins around, even a couple in the ArbCom. It's just that the email list is pretty useless, even an editor like K.e.coffman, who's being viewed sympathetically by them, had trouble communicating with the mail list. It has a a massive amount of emails each day and it's probably not very easy for a single Arb to act on something alone.

So in hindsight, Sashi should have file a SPI in late summer 2017 when you got the behavioral evidence, before being blocked. However, I understand it's not always easy to file them especially if you have on-wiki opponents. Even I felt a bit nosy filing this one, even if I don't care what people think about me and I've already stepped on enough toes. Obviously there's no policy against using diffs collected by others, although naturally I took sole responsibility for the material I inserted the in the report on-wiki.

The comments by Sage on his talkpage are a bit weird. He was asking whether he could help with Wikipedia topics already (with the Cirt account? despite being warned it will be indeffed if he edits with it?) So I'd imagine there's a high chance of a new sock. Maybe I listed too many of the behavior traits in the SPI and emptied our hand from the best cards already ,as he can now avoid those characteristics. :lol:
Credit where credit is due, tarantino on WO was the one who first brought up the possibility of Sagecandor being Cirt. Much of the evidence provided since was compiled by me and Sashi, but neither of us were the ones who first expressed the suspicion. As to Sashi, he had been indeffed in late June, which was several weeks before tarantino mentioned the suspicions he and other members had about the account. Perhaps you are confused as Sashi has had several changes made to his block log. These were to strip him of talk page access, then e-mail, and then an ArbCom action to reinforce the previous blocks, presumably due to his appeal being rejected. His initial indef was for "harassment" because he brought up Sagecandor's extensive editing about books related to Trump. Sagecandor then filed a request for enforcement and Sashi was banned. When the info about Sagecandor being Cirt started coming out he was almost the subject of a boomerang for another enforcement request when he suddenly claimed he was having a health crisis and the matter was aborted. Since we don't know his real identity, there is no way to know if the health crisis was real or manufactured to avoid accountability.

sashi
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by sashi » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:45 pm

You did a good thing for Wikipedia, Pudeo. I saw a contributor I like getting bullied by Sage just the other day. It was only a matter of time before they started hauling people to the drama boards again. I find it amazing ArbCom ignored exactly the same evidence for over a year until the moment when he'd finished all the bios he'd tasked himself with adding.

I imagine Cirt's main goal might have been to be sure they'll be written into WP history, rather than the short-term DNC goals that appear to have motivated them on the surface. Difficult to know. I imagine the latter could pay better than the former.

I don't even know what to think though with BU Rob 23 saying nonsense like "I've never heard of Cirt." I have email that would certainly seem to prove the contrary.

I was blocked twice because of Cirt. First they cried "wiki-hounding" when I was critical of their spinning on a page (the fact that I'd been called there by a centralized bot announcing RfC in politics was dismissed as unimportant). Cirt has always liked to accuse anyone studying their patterns of editing of WP:Wikihounding Cirt.

Quite an effective HTD agent, that Cirt. But now I guess they're confirmed, bagged & tagged. And nothing much has changed.

If they show up here, they should explain the precise meaning they had in mind for the acronym CIRT.

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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by Proabivouac » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:24 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:15 pm
The fact Sagecandor apparently doesn't even deny being Cirt makes one wonder how that ArbCom investigation didn't end differently. Had he made a more emphatic case? Did he play the "health" card? ArbCom obviously had this matter before them last year and did nothing of substance.
Obviously they decided to let him continue.

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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:33 pm

Looks like Sagecandor's Kavanaugh-related articles aren't going to make it onto the front page after all. He only got to have over a dozen articles created in violation of his restriction appear on the front page.The poor dear.

Image

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Pudeo
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by Pudeo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:06 pm

"Sagecandor" kept playing dumb on his talkpage and removed everything with "alright, thank you for the advice" type of replies. Bbb seemed genuinely not amused with his requests for full protection. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =863773717

sashi
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by sashi » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:35 pm

Wow TDA, I hadn't seen your retrospective on Twitter. (§) Thanks for putting that together. Meanwhile, people on WPO seem to be poking through his promotional writings (§).

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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Sagecandor returns

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:02 pm

Pudeo mentioned this over on Wikipediocracy, but I'll mention it here as well. Had there been any lingering doubts at all about the identification of Sagecandor as Cirt even after the SPI, the recent activity by Cirt's original account is hard to explain away. Just a week after Sagecandor was blocked, Cirt started up again on other Wikimedia sites. Commons and Wikidata saw some edits, but most significant is the editing he did on Wiktionary. A lot of his edits there were about the term "devil's triangle" and for anyone who kept track of the Kavanaugh confirmation fight, you would know this is a term that came up because it was disputed whether Kavanaugh lied when he stated the term when used in his yearbook was about a drinking game because others have claimed it was sexual slang about having a threesome. This fed into charges that Kavanaugh perjured himself during his testimony. Cirt specifically added quotes referencing the sexual slang to the definition page and created a citation page for the term and that was overwhelmingly comments about Kavanaugh. So, after he got banned from his Sagecandor account and de-facto banned from Wikipedia, he took to Wiktionary to push his anti-Kavanaugh campaign.

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