Wikidata licence woes

General discussion about Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects
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Dysklyver
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Re: Wikidata licence woes

Post by Dysklyver » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:08 pm

All the tech volunteers are plants. I should know, I know them.
Also on other forums. Also on wikipediocracy. I live at www.wiki.org.uk

Proabivouac
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:01 pm

Re: Wikidata licence woes

Post by Proabivouac » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:33 pm

Dysklyver wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:08 pm
All the tech volunteers are plants. I should know, I know them.
Tell us more…

One of the most common games, and I've seen this firsthand: I'm always trying to determine who was the first to say something. If I cite someone else too – and it is generally bad to dereference someone you've already used – it will be in addendum to the original author and explicitly presented as such. We want the most complete isnad possible. People looking to steal, and this is just as true of theft of physical things, want the murkiest and most deniable chains of transmission they can come up with, so that if they are caught they can say that someone else is to blame. It's completely normal for programmers to say, well, we can't get this material from its author due to the license, but these other people have copied it and are releasing it under commons, so we'll use "their" versions, cite them instead and pretend not to know where it came from.

In this light, Sources > Contributors > Wikipedia > Wikidata > Google starts making sense, and it also provides a clue on why they prefer contributors to be anonymous. When Google is caught, they'll just say they took the wiki license at face value and didn't know any better. And by design this will happen again and again just as it does on Wikipedia on pretty much a daily basis. The great virtue of Wikipedia is that it's yet another layer, it's murky and complicated, and there's not much money in that kitty.

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EarlStatler
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Re: Wikidata licence woes

Post by EarlStatler » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Proabivouac wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:35 pm
Renée Bagslint wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:15 pm
Bertrand Russell wrote:The method of ‘postulating’ what we want has many advantages; they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil. Let us leave them to others and proceed with our honest toil.
He was talking about a technical position in the philiosophy of logic, of course. The Wikimedia projects seem to have applied the principle to plagiarism, but with a most perverse outcome -- individually small but cumulatively huge amounts of toil to produce the same effects as theft.
And this is why commons licenses which allow derivative works should be banned by law, unless the work is entirely the original creation of the author as in an original work of art (which if I'm not mistaken was the original pretense of the license.)
In The Netherlands it is already forbidden by law, except when you are the holder of the rights, because we don't have fair use. Just like many other country's in Europe, like Belgium, Germany, etc. But lets focus on The Netherlands. We have only the extreem limited citaatrecht, quotation right, but that is extreme, extreme limited. You can't use that for "writing" articles, that is legal impossible.

What here is written is wrong
Engelfriet: Bij ons is het een uitgemaakte zaak, want we weten uit de huizenzoekmachinejurisprudentie dat een kort stukje met klein fotootje en hyperlink in principe een citaat is. Maar in België mocht het overnemen van een kort stukje uit een nieuwsbericht door Google News niet, omdat dat niet gebillijkt was door het doel.
That is simply not true. It is in no way a uitgemaakte zaak. (settled matter) The citaatrecht is in Holland is much more complex than this guy is claiming. Because the citaatrecht is extreem tricky in combination with our Code Napoleon legal system. How do you want tho convince the judge it is fair to use protected material for every purpose? With that huizenzoekmachinejurisprudentie? Well, good luck!
If you're in a dogfight, become a cat!

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EarlStatler
Posts: 318
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Re: Wikidata licence woes

Post by EarlStatler » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:19 am

As you can read here in this paper written by me:

The Postman Always Rings Twice/Wikiquote:Citaatrecht.

You understand in our citaatrecht the most important is the GOAL. The why and because. Our citaatrecht is flexible, because we have no common law. So, in the case of the huizenzoekmachinejurisprudentie (huizen zoek machine jurisprudentie) it was a matter of using protected material from sides of real estate offices to create a site where buyers cold find a house in the regio or city they wanted. The goal is clear.

I give a few other examples in that paper, and claim:
The Postman Always Rings Twice aka Graaf Statler:

"Duidelijk hieruit zal zijn dat het wel en niet terecht een beroep doen op het citaatrecht per toepassing kan schelen. Bij de recensie van een dichter zijn werk in een artikel kan dit dus totaal anders liggen dan b.v. hier. Wat hier wel aan toegevoegd dient te worden is dat de reden (het omdat) valide moet zijn, en geen flutreden mag zijn als: Ik wilde mijn Facebookpagina wat aankleden en dergelijke."
In short: It is in no way a settled matter, that Dutch Citaatrecht. And short after creating that page I got a mail out of the blue (I was not active anymore on the WMF projects in that time) I was Global Banned by mister James Alexander.

But the only right conclusion can be, the way Wikipedia is built up out of quotes is not aloud in our country, and there CC license is misleading in The Netherlands, and a danger for the re-user. As far it is materiaal not given free by the owner of the rights, or if it belongs to the PB, but in that last case you don't even need a licence.

But keep one thing in mind:

Disclaimer, this user has not even finishend the primary school, stayed in school twice (class one and four), and is tested on a IQ of 70 in that time!
If you're in a dogfight, become a cat!

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