BLP inclusion discussion, GorillaWarfare

General discussion about Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects
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Auggie
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Auggie » Thu May 17, 2018 7:07 pm

meanwhile... slow day at the ocracy. No posts yet!

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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Fri May 18, 2018 8:20 am

Auggie wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:37 pm
Let's agree to disagree about 18 year olds but as far as Molly White is concerned, that question is moot. As a college graduate in her 20s, she is more qualified than both Gates and Zuckerberg were when they started their companies.
More qualified on paper, perhaps, but she seems to lack the kind of outside-the-box thinking that would be needed for that kind of success story. When it comes to ArbCom, part of her issue has always been her rigid adherence to her particular orthodoxy. The way she responded to Kumioko's criticism is a pretty good example. Rather than engage in a conversation about the various legitimate points raised she took the feminist route of quibbling about tone. Among the many reasons to criticize feminism is how it has served to enable an entire generation of entitled narcissists. Male arbitrators at least have to put a little more effort into disregarding their critics. By invoking her femaleness she successfully avoided having to defend her record. Her feeling compelled to resurrect a months-old thread in part just to make that quip speaks volumes.

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Auggie
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Auggie » Fri May 18, 2018 1:16 pm

It didn't work though. We see it as distractionary nonsense.

Proabivouac
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Proabivouac » Fri May 18, 2018 4:48 pm

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 8:20 am
Auggie wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:37 pm
Let's agree to disagree about 18 year olds but as far as Molly White is concerned, that question is moot. As a college graduate in her 20s, she is more qualified than both Gates and Zuckerberg were when they started their companies.
More qualified on paper, perhaps, but she seems to lack the kind of outside-the-box thinking that would be needed for that kind of success story.
Rendering judgment over scholarly content across a number of disciplines, and standing in personal judgment over the creators of said content, or for that matter over people in general, is not remotely analogous to founding a tech firm. Even the grown-up Zuckerberg remains laughably unqualified in this respect. For that matter, there are plenty of excellent chess players who are even younger than that. Not so many novelists and pretty much no academic scholars. It takes many years and more usually decades of work to say anything which is both original and valid. White will have zero experience with that process, and no, a bachelor's degree doesn't count, especially nowadays as it's simply the certification of an "acceptable citizen" and heavy on political correctness, which she has learned very well. Outside of coding, where I've not seen her work and wouldn't bother to judge it anyway as it's as irrelevant here as her plumbing skills, her knowledge seems to consist of just repeating what others told her to repeat. Has she even read the foundational works of feminism or is it all secondhand from #metoo and the like? I've read her vigorous ideological assertions but I've never seen her cite anyone. I think she doesn't even know where "her own" ideas come from.
Last edited by Proabivouac on Fri May 18, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Fri May 18, 2018 5:40 pm

Auggie wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:16 pm
It didn't work though. We see it as distractionary nonsense.
Well, that thread did end up mostly discussing her insinuations rather than her conduct. She probably doesn't care if people over here are not so distracted.

Proabivouac
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Proabivouac » Fri May 18, 2018 6:16 pm

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:40 pm
Auggie wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:16 pm
It didn't work though. We see it as distractionary nonsense.
Well, that thread did end up mostly discussing her insinuations rather than her conduct. She probably doesn't care if people over here are not so distracted.
Just to underscore the level of erudition at work here, the twitter post White cited as proof of her claims about correct language use was authored by "Black Aziz aNANsi" (caps in original) and her comment thereto was "Add to this: I will also immediately picture you as a Ferengi", a reference to the Star Trek universe.

https://twitter.com/molly0x57/status/992452524492894211

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Auggie
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Auggie » Fri May 18, 2018 6:36 pm

Proabivouac wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:16 pm
The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:40 pm
Auggie wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:16 pm
It didn't work though. We see it as distractionary nonsense.
Well, that thread did end up mostly discussing her insinuations rather than her conduct. She probably doesn't care if people over here are not so distracted.
Just to underscore the level of erudition at work here, the twitter post White cited as proof of her claims about correct language use was authored by "Black Aziz aNANsi" (caps in original) and her comment thereto was "Add to this: I will also immediately picture you as a Ferengi", a reference to the Star Trek universe.

https://twitter.com/molly0x57/status/992452524492894211
:lol: ok it is kind of comical how stupid it all is.
Proabivouac wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:48 pm
Rendering judgment over scholarly content across a number of disciplines, and standing in personal judgment over the creators of said content, or for that matter over people in general, is not remotely analogous to founding a tech firm. Even the grown-up Zuckerberg remains laughably unqualified in this respect. For that matter, there are plenty of excellent chess players who are even younger than that. Not so many novelists and pretty much no academic scholars. It takes many years and more usually decades of work to say anything which is both original and valid. White will have zero experience with that process, and no, a bachelor's degree doesn't count, especially nowadays as it's simply the certification of an "acceptable citizen" and heavy on political correctness, which she has learned very well. Outside of coding, where I've not seen her work and wouldn't bother to judge it anyway as it's as irrelevant here as her plumbing skills, her knowledge seems to consist of just repeating what others told her to repeat. Has she even read the foundational works of feminism or is it all secondhand from #metoo and the like? I've read her vigorous ideological assertions but I've never seen her cite anyone. I think she doesn't even know where "her own" ideas come from.
I've gotta disagree. I've known people who by the third or fourth year of college are plenty sharp to do all that stuff. What they don't know, they look up or they ask people. The problem with Wikipedia is it's full of lazy screen addicts who think jacking around on a computer is an adequate substitute for learning and knowing things. I can't say I know much about Molly White other than what I hear around critical forums. I really have never followed ArbCom drama closely enough to know good arbitrators from bad arbitrators. But if you are unimpressed with her, I would say blame it on her Wikipedia habit, not her age, education level, or gender.

Renée Bagslint
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Renée Bagslint » Thu May 31, 2018 7:26 pm

Zoloft assures Molly White that she is welcome to post at Wikipediocracy and is free to ignore awkward questions. After all, asking her hard questions might "shine the light of scrutiny into the dark crevices of Wikipedia and its related projects" or even "examine the corruption there, along with its structural flaws".

But to be fair, she does agree with one critic.

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Auggie
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Auggie » Thu May 31, 2018 7:48 pm

Zoloft is impressed. She's a real big deal in his world.

Proabivouac
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Re: Wikipediocracy's failure is a joy to watch

Post by Proabivouac » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:10 am

Auggie wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 7:48 pm
Zoloft is impressed. She's a real big deal in his world.
Hey, she's a big deal in mine. She signed a letter written mostly by Newyorkbrad explaining why I must be banned until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.
GorillaWarfare wrote: I was 20 when I was elected. I studied computer engineering and then computer science in college, though I don't know if I'd agree that my college education is particularly relevant to my abilities at editing Wikipedia; plenty of folks without degrees or with degrees "irrelevant to the creation of a scholarly reference work" are fine Wikipedia editors.
I agree that it isn't relevant. What would be relevant is a substantial background, ideally spanning decades, in scholarship, even as an amateur. That's not possible at age 20, and it's not the path you've chosen in life, which is fine. I'm just saying that computer programmers of any age shouldn't be in charge of Wikipedia. Should anthropological linguists be in charge of tech firms? At its core, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia written by a third-rate tech firm. To the extent it has any value, it's because not quite everyone there is a programmer. Conversely, most of its endemic pathologies can be attributed to programmers' practices, values and self-interest.
GorillaWarfare wrote: Was there someone who agreed to appear on the banners…who was an older, more accomplished woman and was also a professor of Russian literature?
For "agreed", try "was asked" and you've nailed it. Kevin Gorman told me before his untimely passing that you'd felt used by the WMF in this respect.

In the big picture, as most figure out sooner or later, if older men besides your father are taking an interest in and offering to help you, there is ever only one reason for this. Nowadays this often takes the form of supporting feminism in order to placate and impress. You'll know you're being treated equally when you are ignored until you have accomplished enough for your work to compel attention on its own merits. Despair not overmuch of this burden, for like all those of youth you will be relieved of it sooner than you think.

I think you know that my characterizations of men's motives are accurate, and let me be clear that these do not reflect much upon you, except inasmuch as people enjoy attention and the feeling of being valued and tend to grasp at this without asking questions. You could have pursued a "look at me!" profession and did not. You want to do honest work and be valued for your mind. Good for you.

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