Julian Assange arrested!

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Auggie
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Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Auggie » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:00 pm

Ecuador withdrew protection. There are some sweet quotes from the president.
"We've ended the asylum of this spoiled brat," a visibly flustered President Lenin Moreno said Thursday in a fiery speech explaining his decision to withdraw protection of Assange and hand him over to British police. "From now on we'll be more careful in giving asylum to people who are really worth it, and not miserable hackers whose only goal is to destabilize governments."
:lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/why- ... ge-n993711

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The Devil's Advocate
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by The Devil's Advocate » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:58 am

Moreno is apparently crooked and began moving to have Assange expelled after WikiLeaks, not Assange himself, mentioned the corruption scandal engulfing his administration. He also has apparently been getting billions from the U.S. to try and essentially buy Assange from them. After the whole situation with the 2016 elections leaks and pressure from Spain over comments Assange made about that country's suppression of the peaceful Catalonian secession movement they had been looking for an excuse. Of course, Assange wasn't the one who destabilized Spain nor was he destabilizing Ecuador. By publishing truthful information about Clinton rigging the democratic primaries you could argue he destabilized the U.S. government, but we're doing okay in that respect. Even with the 2016 election leaks, you can hardly blame WikiLeaks or the Russians or the FBI or Macedonian Internet fakers for Clinton being so smug as to think she didn't even have to bother going to Wisconsin.

Proabivouac
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Proabivouac » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:55 am

This is all crazy. The indictment centers upon Assange's alleged conspiracy with Bradley Manning, whose sentence Obama commuted for some reason (you know what to do guys!) although the case against Manning couldn't be more overwhelming. Now the United States is in essence prosecuting Assange for treason, although he was and is neither a citizen nor a resident of the United States. Manning betrayed an allegiance and a trust to which Assange was not a party and was not obliged to honr. Funnily enough, if Assange actually were a foreign agent acting upon behalf of his country from within its borders, he would not have been indicted. It is not an international crime to annoy or even to fight the United States.

Renée Bagslint
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Renée Bagslint » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:51 am

As I understand it, Assange is charged by the US with some form of espionage. That's considered a crime by most countres, independently of the citizenship of the accused. Treason is the only crime defined by the US Constitution, which reads
The Founding Fathers wrote:Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
It seems unlikely that Assange could successfully prosecuted for treason, and the UK would not extradite him on such a charge, as it carries the death penalty.

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EarlStatler
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by EarlStatler » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:41 pm

Assange. first, the EU will never let him go if he should get the dead penalty.
He was loosing his grip on the reality, I am very glad they took him out of that embassy. It was no arrest, it was needed.
AndI am absolute not saying he is a madman, but he had came in a extreem fearing twilight zone. They did the good thing, they must give him lots of rest, as little incentives as possible, lecture what interest him and a warm bath. His brains are overheated. And his cat need a loving family.

The guy is OK, but it was simple to much for him. The same what you often see with popstars, like Amy Winehouse, the whole 27 club.
No, he must not get the new toy of the free source mouvement, I think it was enough with the sky storming of the European parlement with Rommmmaaaaannniiiieeeee==>Wikimedia.
If you're in a dogfight, become a cat!

Proabivouac
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Proabivouac » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:17 pm

Renée Bagslint wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:51 am
As I understand it, Assange is charged by the US with some form of espionage.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/press ... kl5FNFS7uE
Renée Bagslint wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:51 am
That's considered a crime by most countres, independently of the citizenship of the accused.
Jurisdiction is still an issue. Many thousands of people routinely conduct espionage against foreign powers from within their home countries as part of their jobs. I cannot recall having heard of anyone being extradited for this. Shall we hold that every CIA employee is a conspirator in crimes committed in foreign jurisdictions, subject to extradition where such a treaty exists, and if not, why not?

Several elements of the charges for which Assange is indicted rest upon the premise of obligation to interests of the United States. This is fair if someone has entered the country and as such has implictly agreed to be subject to its jurisdiction while they are there. It is not fair if they remain in their own or some other country. For example, if a Chinese national has committed espionage against the PRC with damning and newsworthy revelations about Xi etc., and you encourage him to get more and then disseminate the results, should you be extradited to PRC to face justice under charges which hinge upon your presumed obligation to refrain from harming the interests of the People's Republic of China?

Try this: in Thailand it is a crime to insult the king. You're speaking on the phone to a friend of yours in Thailand, and the two of you are insulting the king. This is picked up by Thai intelligence and your friend is charged. That's a terrible law, but your friend's indictment is fair and square (and Manning's is far more justified than this as he had an obligation not just as an American citizen but as a soldier.) Have you also committed a crime under the Kingdom of Thailand's jurisdiction?

This is complicated because some international communications should indeed place you under foreign jurisdiction. For example, if you are telemarketing people and scamming them, it is reasonable to say that you are doing business in the country you are calling.

The current indictment against Assange avoids these questions technically but not in substance. The substance is that Assange is a traitor because he conspired with Manning who really is a traitor. The technical point is that he is alleged to have conspired to assist Manning in hacking a government computer system by inviting him to send a hash of a password and see if he could help to crack it, but later said that he'd had no luck and nothing came of it. This is not something for which a foreign national would normally be indicted – you could even say that Assange was merely offering a professional opinion – except for the broader issue of conspiring against a country he should by all rights have been allowed to conspire against.

To make it all murkier, Manning was not even in the United States when the breach occurred, and I'm not clear that the computer system was located in the United States either. United States jurisdiction over Manning's actions rests solely upon Manning's status as an American citizen and soldier deployed to Iraq. Had Assange travelled to Iraq, joined Al Qaeda and personally killed hundreds of American soldiers, this would not have been a crime under American law (hence indefinite detention in Guantanamo without charges.)

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EarlStatler
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by EarlStatler » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:34 am

What you have done the crime you have committed, at least in the EU, must also in your country a crime. So, if you have helped to insult the dog of the king and that is not a crime in your country you have nothing to fear.
But you have to be careful. If a country ask for your extradition there is not a real trail in Europe, there is what you should call a quick scan procedure. And judges are independent from politics. The question will be is the claim of America reasonable, is it a crime to in England too and can't he get the dead penalty. But matters where the servers are, if it was a attempt or not is up to the American judge.
If you're in a dogfight, become a cat!

Proabivouac
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Proabivouac » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:55 am

EarlStatler wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:34 am
And judges are independent from politics.
In which universe is this? A "judge" who is independent from politics is just a person with an opinion. Werejudges truly independent from politics, this indictment would not exist.

If Assange is extradited, it is highly likely that additional charges will be filed uon his rendition to the United States which if filed now would have compromised the extraditional request. Whether he is convicted or acquited will depend entirely upon the relative strength of political pressure from competing factions. Most of the pushback thusfar has come from journalists who seem to believe that they should have a unique professional immunity from the law based upon the first amendment's right to freedom of speech and of the press. If this is true, then the law should be unconstitutional period, not only for journalists, but it helps journalists if they have rights that others don't.

In the big picture the irony is that Manning's own sentence was commuted by Obama solely as a reward for claiming to be transgendered, and now they are going after some third far less culpable party to re-punish in his stead. Wikipedia is unreservedly pro-Chelsea Manning and no doubt approves of this transference of blame:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... d_decision

Renée Bagslint
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Renée Bagslint » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:13 am

Proabivouac wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:55 am
EarlStatler wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:34 am
And judges are independent from politics.
In which universe is this? A "judge" who is independent from politics is just a person with an opinion. Were judges truly independent from politics, this indictment would not exist.
That doesn't make sense. It's someone posting nonsense on the internet who is best described as "just a person with an opinion". Here in the UK, judges are appointed, not elected, and while it is impossible to remove political considerations completely, in general we make a pretty good job of keeping politics out of judicial decision-making.
If Assange is extradited, it is highly likely that additional charges will be filed uon his rendition to the United States which if filed now would have compromised the extraditional request.
If that seems likely, then the UK will refuse the extradition request. This is the doctrine of specialty, which is a legal bar to extradition.

Renée Bagslint
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Re: Julian Assange arrested!

Post by Renée Bagslint » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:30 am

Proabivouac wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:55 am
In the big picture the irony is that Manning's own sentence was commuted by Obama solely as a reward for claiming to be transgendered, and now they are going after some third far less culpable party to re-punish in his stead. Wikipedia is unreservedly pro-Chelsea Manning and no doubt approves of this transference of blame:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... d_decision
Now this is more entertaining. Jimmy Wales has a complex relationship with Assange. At one time Jimmy Wales owned some of the wikileaks domain names through Wikia. Assange has owned them since 2011. More recently, we see Katherine Maher tweeting against Assange ("righteous scumbags"). The WMF position must surely be that since they are heavily pro-Clinton, they are therefore anti-Assange, and they don't like the confusion in the donors' minds about whether Wikileaks is connected with Wikipedia.

Perhaps now is the time to try to underline that connection, for example by asking faux-naif questions about the effect Assange's trial will have on the other projects.

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